Podcast - Employment Law

Transcript

Paul
A very warm welcome to another podcast episode with Warners Law. I’m Paul Harvey and today I have the pleasure of Louise Brenlund, who’s a partner at Warners Law, joining me for this podcast. Louise has been appointed to head up the Employment Law Team. Louise, a very warm welcome to you.

Louise
Thank you, Paul.

Paul
Good to have you with me today. Louise, as you are new to the firm, could you please tell us a bit about your role here at Warners?

Louise
Of course. Thank you for asking. So, Paul, I’ve joined Warners, as you’ve mentioned, as a Partner and Head of the Employment Team. It’s a really exciting time at the moment for Warners because there’s lots of expansion and growth going on, which is part of the reason that I have joined here. This is a really amazing opportunity for me to expand upon the employment advice that Warners are already providing.

So I’m here to really shape and drive the employment team, build upon that advice that’s already been provided to clients, and bring my experience and specialism, which I’ve built over the last 18 years in employment law and HR. I’m really going to build upon this offering, build upon the team and hopefully make a wider experience for current clients and new clients of the firm.

I am really excited, as I say, to be doing this because Warners and the way that they work with clients is close to my heart. They have close client relationships, provide really sound and pragmatic advice, and that’s the way that I like to work. I really like to build on my client relationships and make sure that I understand clients and the way that they work. It’s particularly important with employment and HR issues, as you might imagine, to be able to do that and really understand clients.

So that’s something I’m going to drive forward in my role here, making sure that we provide practical, cost-effective advice and solutions.

Paul
So you mentioned that you’ve got 18 years’ experience in employment law. Did COVID change the shape of employment law?

Louise
In some ways, yes, so as you might imagine, for employment lawyers, none of us were furloughed. We were very, very busy. It was a strange time for employment law which has always been fairly black and white with some grey areas, but the introduction of COVID made things a lot greyer.

One of the things I like to do with clients is to be able to give them sound advice and structure and how to proceed. What happens with COVID is that made it very difficult, and it was a bit of try this, try that and so it changed things in that way. And it certainly had a knock-on effect in terms of what we’re seeing now in employment law.

Paul
Do you actually specialise in any particular sector, Louise?

Louise
Yes. I work in a number of sectors that I really enjoy and I think it’s important to work in different sectors. I’ve had experience in agriculture, construction, creative industries, and food and drink. I’ve been seconded in the construction industry as well, which is really important to me and to my work. But I’ve developed a specialism in the education sector.

That’s something that’s developed over the last couple of years, and I found a real passion for working within that sector. I think the reason I like that is because the landscape within education can change quite rapidly. You never know what you’re going to get. There are lots of different people involved in that, from the headteachers, senior leaders, CEOs, and trustees.

You’re working with a really wide range of people. Plus, you have to take into account the pupils, which are always really important, and their parents, it’s an interesting place to be working.

Paul
That’s interesting. I suppose schools, in some way, are kind of businesses in their own right, aren’t they?

Louise
Well, they’ve had to develop that way. So I think, particularly with multi-academy trusts and how they’re growing and, obviously, the government encouraging that, it never used to be the case. But yes, schools absolutely now are businesses and need to be looking at themselves and dealing with themselves as a business.

Paul
Which means that they’re evolving in that process right now, aren’t they? You mentioned about trusts that are set up and schools merging together, that must be very interesting for you.

Louise
Yes, it brings all sorts of complexities with it. So the transfer of undertakings (TUPE), as it’s more commonly known, is a big issue when we come to these things. I think at the heart of this, you’ve always got to remember that there are individuals involved and people involved. So as much as I can say, this is the law and this is what you need to do. It’s really important to remember that you’ve got these individuals and the effect that that has.

So, I like to work closely with clients, as I said before, in making sure that that’s effective, that you are on the ground and I’m not just a person that’s on the line talking to senior people. I will go in and be present at those meetings, I can explain to individuals what’s happening, and I think that’s a really important ethos for schools to adapt as well.

Paul
Well, you must be a very busy person. I mean, there are so many good schools around Warners, whether in private schools or state schools, and there’s a lot of construction going on as well. So you must be rushed off your feet. But do you have any other roles outside of Warners that you want to expand on?

Louise
Yes. I think it’s really important to do things outside of work. I do some volunteer roles. I’ve been a governor for four years, previously at a single academy trust, and I was very much part of them becoming part of a multi-academy trust. But more recently, in the last couple of years, I’m now a trustee and director at the Rivermead Inclusive Trust, and I also sit on their finance risk and audit committee.

And again, I work with them because of their passion and their ethos. They are a multi-academy trust and they’ve got four schools and a special school. They work with a lot of children with special educational needs, and they’re very much about equality for all, both their learners and staff alike, and they really strive to look after their pupils and their staff as well, which is an ethos that I like to embrace, so I really enjoy working with them.

Apart from that, I’m also vice chair of the Rochdale Cathedral Business Guild. That’s a really interesting group that gets together regularly and brings businesses in the Kent and Medway area together to discuss and share ideas, practices, and ethics. That was really helpful, as you mentioned earlier, with the COVID and how we deal with things and what different businesses are doing and sharing ideas.

It’s a really good group to be part of and I enjoy leading on that. And I mustn’t forget I’m also a mum of two boys.

Paul
He’s always going to say, What do you do in your spare time? But I’ve got a feeling that there isn’t much left.

Louise
No, you’re right, there’s not much spare time, but I do enjoy playing netball, so I try to do that on a regular basis. I’m part of two teams and I do manage to squeeze it in and I miss it if I don’t get to play regularly. So yes, netball is my key.

Paul
Would you say you’re a competitive person?

Louise
I’ve got to say yes.

Paul
You don’t like losing, do you?

Louise
No, I don’t like losing, but it’s the taking part that counts, isn’t it?

Paul
Oh, well, that’s a very good answer. Can you tell us about any interesting cases that you’ve worked on that can give us a good idea about what you do?

Louise
There’s been a lot of cases, I have to be quite careful, as you might imagine, because of confidentiality. One I’ve been working on recently is a school case, and it’s interesting in terms of the issues which aren’t pleasant. It involved a deputy head at a school and he was accused of 12 counts of sexual harassment for a child under 13.

So, you can imagine the implications of this for a deputy head, the school, and everybody involved. It’s been a very difficult matter to deal with. The child wasn’t at the school itself, it was a child outside of the school. But it was and has been a very difficult one to deal with in terms of balancing the interests of all the parties.

I was acting on behalf of the employer and advising the employer, but we then had to act with many other multi-agencies. For example, we had the police involved and we had the LADO (Local Authority Designated Officer) involved. You then had other employees at the school that had to be taken into account. You, of course, had parents that were becoming aware of this. There was press coverage, so we were having to deal with the press.

The other difficult situation with this was that the individual was initially arrested two years ago. So this process has been going on for over two years, largely because the court wasn’t able to hear the matter and it was postponed twice during these periods. Finally, the individual came to court quite recently in the Magistrates Court and it was a seven-day, quite gruelling trial.

I’m pleased to say he was found not guilty, but that leads to other difficulties for the school, which is now having to undertake its own investigations because there’s a different burden between criminal and employment. So, they’re now investigating the matter themselves to determine their employment relationship and how to deal with that going forward.

Paul
That sounds very challenging.

Louise
It was hard for everyone concerned and everyone involved in that.

Paul
Very, very sensitive area that you’re dealing with. And I suppose that leads me on to the next question, which is how do you see the major challenges that you could be facing or, in fact, employers could be facing in the next 12 months?

Louise
Yes, that’s a really good question. I think interestingly, again, what you’ve picked up on in terms of the pandemic and the effects of that pandemic, including the knock-on that that has had for many businesses, as you might imagine, we’re certainly seeing that come through now in a number of ways. For example, recruitment and retention has been largely affected and businesses are having to adjust to deal with that.

Many businesses have adjusted, obviously, to remote working. They were forced to do that, but now they’re having to deal with this, coming back to work, coming back to the office. And what we’re now seeing is individuals, employees have been used to being at home working, and now they don’t want to come back to the office. So how does the employer deal with that and how do they deal with the flexible working and how that’s all going to operate with their requirements and the employee’s requirements? So that’s presenting some very interesting challenges.

The other effects we’re seeing of this are the knock-on effects around wellbeing and how staff have been affected. I think there’s definitely a difference in terms of how staff absences are being dealt with, what the staff absences are, processes, and procedures. Whereas perhaps in the past businesses have not tended or want to deal with those issues and have left them, there’s now more of a requirement to do that and to deal with things, but there is still a reluctance to do so because if it’s linked with COVID, for example, employers want to be nice, however sometimes they need to deal with these things for their business.

Paul
You’re kind of writing the rules as you go along and I suppose my impression is that it merges them with HR as well, doesn’t it?

Louise
Yes, so very much that the practices need to take place and be up to date. It’s really important that those are all cohesive and what the business is doing on the ground works in practice with those policies and procedures and what HR is doing. There’s a massive linkage there. Sometimes that isn’t present and sometimes businesses have policies and procedures, but employees aren’t aware of them. That’s really important that businesses make sure that there is that linkage.

Paul
And your expertise and experience also brings HR into the frame as well?

Louise
Yes. So, I’ve worked very closely with a number of HR consultants and it’s really important, as I say, to have that link up. So whilst I’m an employment lawyer and I know about employment law, I’ve also had hands-on contacts with the HR side of things. I do a lot of policies and procedures, but I’ve also advised grievance panels, disciplinary panels, and various panels and given advice on that side of things. This often means that there’s a HR director or a HR individual involved. So I work quite closely with HR individuals.

Paul
As I said at the beginning, you must be a very, very busy person. How many people are on your team Louise?

Louise
At the moment, there are four of us in the team, all doing employment work. As you say, we are really busy and hopefully, we will be able to grow that team and there’s lots to come. I think there is going to be lots more coming in the next 12 months as well and there are lots of employment bills going through, as you may have seen and as the government keeps telling us.

So, it’s going to be a challenging time over the next 12 months. And in that regard, I think, again, it’s going to be challenging for employers because of the employment law compliance and looking out for those changes that are to come. For example, we’ve got nine employment bills going through Parliament at the moment. They might not be made law, but if they are made law, this is going to have an impact on policies, procedures, and contracts.

So, it’s really important that businesses keep abreast of this and up to date with this.

Paul
There’s a lot of reading for you to do in the next 12 months, I think, just to keep up with the new legal changes. And I suppose with schools in mind over the next 12 months, are there gender issues that you see coming more into the frame?

Louise
Not necessarily. I think schools have always been very good at dealing with gender issues. There is lots going on in that area and it’s really important to be mindful of that and recognise that. But I think that’s an area that schools have always dealt with very well.

It’s probably more of an issue, if I’m honest with you, for other businesses that probably aren’t quite so used to dealing with it. So, for example, looking at the use of toilets, to give a bland example. But most of the schools I have seen them go into have already dealt with that matter. They’re quite used to dealing with that.

And I think perhaps because it’s the younger generation and so they’ve been forced into it. But yes, definitely, I think it’s something that businesses need to be mindful of again.

Paul
Louise, thank you for your time today. You’re obviously a bundle of energy, a very strong addition at Warners Law heading up the Employment Law Team. Thank you for your time today, Louise.

Louise
Thank you, Paul.

Paul
So, I was joined by Louise Brenlund, who is a partner at Warners Law. Some very interesting information there. Please check out the other podcasts in this series. With Warners Law, you can gain extremely good, strong legal advice from other lawyers at Warners Law. I’m Paul Harvey. Please join me next time.